Healing the Wounds: Navigating Church Hurt

Have you ever been wounded by church people and wondered if you'd ever heal? You're not alone. Church hurt is one of the most painful experiences for believers because it comes from the very community meant to support us.

This raw conversation dives deep into both sides of church hurt – examining how unmet expectations, legalism, judgment, and leadership failures can create deep wounds, while also challenging listeners to look inward at their own responsibility in the healing process. We explore the crucial difference between having valid hurts from genuine leadership failures versus holding onto offenses rooted in personal preferences or unspoken expectations.

What makes this episode particularly powerful is the vulnerable sharing from both perspectives. As church leaders, we've caused unintentional hurt to others, and we've also experienced deep church hurt ourselves. This dual perspective allows us to speak with authenticity about the biblical path toward healing – separating God's perfect character from people's imperfect actions, following Matthew 18's guidelines for conflict resolution, and embracing the sometimes difficult work of forgiveness.

The most transformative insight might be learning to distinguish between someone having a "bad heart" versus having a "bad day." When we can determine whether hurt was intentional or unintentional, we gain freedom to extend grace more generously. And for those who find themselves experiencing the same problems at every church they attend, we gently challenge: "Everywhere you go, there you are."

Whether you're currently nursing wounds from church hurt or seeking to create a healthier church culture as a leader, this conversation offers practical wisdom for moving forward in faith. The path to healing isn't easy, but it's worth it – because a healed heart can experience the fullness of community God designed us for.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Understanding Church Hurt
• 4:00 The Roots of Religious Pain
• 8:12 Leadership Failures and Valid Hurts
• 17:26 Charging to Heart vs. Head
• 24:16 Biblical Approach to Resolving Conflict
• 31:35 Forgiveness as Freedom
• 39:33 Healing and Moving Forward
• 47:04 Prayer for Those Carrying Hurt

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Let's dig crew. Thank you for joining this conversation Today. We are talking about healing from church hurt and I just want to be clear Church hurt is actually boils down to. You were hurt by people that came from a place called church. So I just want to lay that out real quick. But maybe you're going through something like that. Maybe you clicked on this video because you're actually still dealing with church hurt and you're actually not healing from church hurt.

Speaker 2: 0:29

Or how about this? Maybe you go to a church and you're finding yourself slowly starting to drift, or you're finding yourself slowly starting to nitpick at the pastor, nitpick at leadership, Like everything gets on your nerves and you don't even realize maybe something might have hurt you right? Church is made up of imperfect people and we all have expectations on a church. We have expectation that we put on pastors and on leadership which they don't know about your expectations and then you get mad and frustrated because they didn't need it. Or maybe someone misinterpreted God's love when it comes to how they judged or used their discernment in a situation Like what else?

Speaker 1: 1:10

Like things that can really trigger Anything. Someone looks at you a certain type of way and you feel judged by them. Or maybe you've been hurt already. You've moved on to the next church and now those same things are starting to resurface, and it's not actually the church, it's actually wherever you are. There you are and you're running into the same problems at the next church. And how do you deal with that, so that you don't just know your church hurt?

Speaker 2: 1:33

You think you're in the right and you think they're in the wrong and you're frustrated with the church and their convictions and the things that they feel led to do. Or maybe you feel like you're not heard, thinking that maybe you think you're supposed to be heard. You know what I mean. I think there's a lot of layers where people don't realize like they're upset with the church, they're poking at the church, they're frustrated with the church and not even realizing like maybe the church they're poking at the church, they're frustrated with the church and not even realizing like maybe the church may not be as wrong as you think they are and you're actually hurt, thinking that you're right, but you're actually wrong, I think we should have this conversation.

Speaker 1: 2:14

We're going to have a lot of conversation about all of these questions that we just asked, but first I got to tell y'all Pierre asked to match me today. Guys, I just wanted to say that what happened?

Speaker 2: 2:24

You asked to match me today guys, I just wanted to say that what happened? You asked to match me today. Oh yeah, we are matching right now. Let's go.

Speaker 1: 2:28

I did Pierre, we are not a matching couple, but today, guys, he asked to match me. He was like what, if we both wear hoodies today? Yeah, that's okay.

Speaker 2: 2:35

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Speaker 2: 2:56

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Speaker 1: 3:15

All right, but if you are here joining us and you're new, thank you for joining this conversation Don't forget to hit subscribe so that you see our videos Every time we post. Hit that heart button and give us some appreciation. We always love when our let's dig crew team hit that heart button. It just lets us know that we are talking about the conversations you want to hear. We're bringing value to your life and that's always our goal, and our goal is to help you grow a deeper relationship with God, others and yourself. So if y'all are ready and you commented, you subscribed, you shared it and you gave us some heart love. I think that's everything.

Speaker 1: 3:53

That's everything, man, if you've done all of that, let's dig.

Speaker 2: 3:55

That's funny. This conversation is interesting because I'll be honest with you. For me, growing up in church, my whole entire life I've dealt with church hurt and there were times where I could have sworn. I knew like the way I thought it, the way I saw it, the way I felt it was the right way of seeing it.

Speaker 1: 4:15

I think that's very valid, like I want to.

Speaker 1: 4:17

I want to take that like second to really dwell on that thought, because, you're right, a lot of church hurt is really, really rooted in, I'm right, and they did me wrong and I don't think that that's talked about enough in this situation and in these circumstances of like, the entitlement of like no, they did me wrong, they might have, but like, where in the church is your voice? Where are you just a member of the church? Are you hurt because the pastors aren't doing what you want them to do, like? I think that that's a very valid point to like for people to internalize and really look at themselves.

Speaker 2: 4:59

Yeah, I think to defend people who's been church hurt cause I've been church hurt before I think finding the line of calling this place your home but not getting a say so really can cause hurt. Because think about it, for me, as a church leader, I'm a part of leadership and when people join our family, they join our fellowship, they join our home. You know, especially in the last 10 years, this new phrase has been a big thing in churches welcome home. So well, if you're calling this home at my home, I got to say so At my home. If I have a concern about the lighting or concern about the temperature, or concern about the food that we're serving the kids, or we're concerned about certain different things, or the detergent, soap and the candles.

Speaker 1: 5:45

It's making me break out.

Speaker 2: 5:46

You know what I mean. And how dark should it be in the daytime, or how dark should it be at night, or trying to read, or when should it be quiet? So I have all that say so at home. But church, as we say, welcome home, which I understand, that verbiage, it's just something that just really got really big in the last couple of years and I think churches mean well because they want people to feel at home. But I think sometimes we forget that people have say-sos at home.

Speaker 1: 6:11

That's very true.

Speaker 2: 6:12

And so people come thinking like this is my home, these are my family, these are my brothers and my sisters. So in their mind, they have taken their practices that they implement at home and implemented at home, aka their church, which I think we all do it. So we just think, wow, this is my home. I take my shoes off at home. So when you go to church, you take your shoes off. Don't be taking your shoes off at church. Well, it's my home. So that's what I'm saying. So I think what happens is people with their culture, backgrounds and how, with their upbringing, whatever they do at home, they come to a church. It becomes their home and they come in with all their expectations. Or we come in with our mindset and here's how we do things, and we just think everyone's going to listen, everyone's going to like it because it's home, and we get upset because all of our ideas that we're passionate about someone's not listening, or they heard it, but we're not going to do it.

Speaker 1: 7:08

I think that's been a very different experience for me now, stepping more into leadership of like hearing people's concerns, thoughts, cares, all those things, but knowing that there is a vision and there is a head of our church. It is not us, it's not our own church. So we are the culture keepers, though we are the ones saying like hey, this is what our pastor has called for our church to do and this is where we're going. But we are also the people that hear from all the other people in the church of all their cares and concerns. And it's being in the leadership of like hey, I hear you, but like that's not where we're going right now. And navigating that is really challenging, but it's validating. Like hey, I do hear you, it's a great idea, it's not unbiblical, but this is not where we're going right now.

Speaker 2: 8:00

Yeah, that's so true because, like, some people come to a church and they have their convictions, yes, and you get offended if your pastor doesn't share your conviction, right, and then you feel like, okay, I DM'd my pastor or I told my, or I tried to, or they preached a certain thing, and it's like wait, for example, let's talk about alcohol. Right, there are some people that get offended if they find out that their pastor has a glass of wine with their dinner because of their personal conviction. Maybe they used to deal with alcoholism, maybe they used to deal with that like alcohol abuse, so they've made a decision to cut it out their life and so they may go to a church leader ask questions about it. Hey, I heard that pastor does this, or I heard that, and that church leader, with a pure heart, tries to protect the pastor, which some people might think it's cultish.

Speaker 2: 8:47

Some people might think, well, they're loyalties to this man, they're covering up for him. Well, no, first of all, don't try to just assume they're trying to cover up. The goal is we want to protect the house and so, on the pastor's defense, we want to cover him, like you know what I'm saying. And so I think some people they get they, they, they trauma bond, like where they went through something, and they get upset if they can't find someone inside a church to relate with their trauma, like you know, what I'm saying and then so we feel hurt or we feel like one.

Speaker 2: 9:16

I remember one lady left the church because she tried to voice herself to one of her team leaders and her team leaders didn't side with like her concern. But her concern wasn't sin, right, no one was in sin. There was no immoral behavior.

Speaker 1: 9:31

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 9:31

There was, like it was just a preference, yes, and I think people get so caught up in their preferences and they take it on thinking that, no, this is Bible. No, that's what you prefer.

Speaker 1: 9:44

Right, which is okay Totally fine. And if you want to find a church that does have that, that is totally fine. But if you are planted in a church that may not have that same preference, then you have to either accept that that's where God's planted you, or maybe he's calling you to something different.

Speaker 2: 10:01

Yeah, that's so big. Calling you to something different, yeah, that's so big.

Speaker 1: 10:04

I do think leadership um failure from leaders to meet unspoken expectations is one of the biggest things that causes church hurt.

Speaker 2: 10:16

A hundred percent. Somebody, somebody puts an expectation on a leader. Leader don't even know about it, right? And you keep getting mad at the leader cause they're not meeting your expectation.

Speaker 1: 10:22

Yeah, that's actually more of my experience of church or is that Like I'm a person that loves, like birthdays, and like there are things in my life that happen that are really big deals.

Speaker 1: 10:36

And I can remember in like my 20s, that kind of age group where I was like man, they didn't even say happy birthday to me or they didn't even know that I did this.

Speaker 1: 10:45

And this is a big deal. And I, now that I've fast forward 15, 20 years and I'm like in that leadership role and I realized my expectations on my leaders were way too high, because, as you're leading a church of a few hundred people, there is no way for them to know what was happening in my life. That was very important to me, like I I shouldn't have put those expectations on it, because now that I'm in a leadership role and I have five people that I could name right now that are heavy on my heart every single day, multiple times a day, because of what they're walking through, and then those five people will change and three of the five will roll over to next week, but then I'll have two new things that are heavy on my heart. So all of those things like the weight of leadership in church and what they carry. It's impossible for me to remember everybody's birthday like something like that.

Speaker 2: 11:37

Like I had this thought that when it comes to church hurt, that some people's church hurt is valid. When it comes to leadership failures, yeah, because there's there's two sides. There's one side is people have expectation on leaders that they never voice. There might be preferences, and when those leaders don't meet those, you get hurt, right, and you want to leave it. It gets in your heart and you don't even realize it, right. You start nitpicking at every little thing, everything. Like I'm saying why does he preach from the NIV? Like what, did you not hear that at NIV back in 1995, there was, like bro, what is you talking about?

Speaker 1: 12:13

So true, Like it gets under your skin every single thing.

Speaker 2: 12:16

But here is a church hurt from leadership failure.

Speaker 2: 12:20

that is valid, Like when leaders abuse their power when leaders use manipulation right when leaders are hypocrites in their leadership and it deeply wounds people. For example, leaders who force what they say but not as they do. That causes people to become hurt Absolutely, because it's like hey, I'm trying to follow your lead, you're saying one thing but doing something else that hurt. It is valid. Yeah, for sure. Here's another one. This is the big one when it comes to leadership failures. It's moral. Failures in leadership can really shake people's trust and leave them feeling betrayed.

Speaker 1: 12:57

Yeah, I've questioned my placement in the global church, like big church, when there were leaders that I looked up to that had moral failures and they did not own it and understand that yo, you're hurting people. It's actually really crazy how much something like that affects other believers in the body. It's crazy that a mega church pastor in Nework that we've never met in our entire lives yeah but when they fell it actually really did affect us yeah man.

Speaker 2: 13:30

We never met him, never like, we just looked at him from afar, appreciated him and valued him. And you know he's, you know he's come back to the lord and he's owned his mistake and his failure and he realized he not only just felt his wife and his children, but he felt everyone that he was leading. And to me that's big, because I'm like yo when a leader fails like that, morally speaking, like the hurt that it causes, it causes people to leave the church and so people think church. So I want people to know that this conversation, not just belittling church, hurt.

Speaker 1: 13:59

No, not at all. Some are very valid.

Speaker 2: 14:01

Like you're hurt because you want to, you know, switch from chairs to pews. And it's like, bro, relax, like I'm not saying that. I'm saying you could be hurt because a leader that you had high expectations for, and especially if they're biblical expectations, absolutely. Paul talks about it. He tells this to Timothy, right, he says, like you know, in Titus, he tells him, like yo, if you want to be a church leader, you must be faithful to your wife. Yes, your children, like your children, should respect you. Yeah, your neighbors you should have a good reputation with them. Right, right, you should not be heavy on the alcohol. Right, you should be able to manage your money well.

Speaker 1: 14:36

Yes.

Speaker 2: 14:36

These are biblical standards, yeah, and so when a leader doesn't meet these expectations, it's not people's expectation, it's biblical expectation. People get hurt, especially when a leader doesn't own it and say you know what I messed up. I failed in this category.

Speaker 1: 14:51

So true so.

Speaker 2: 14:52

I do think that's another one. Another thing that causes church hurt is is judgment and like legalism. Legalism is a big thing when it comes to church hurt. This hurts people like this one right here. Okay, so some churches lean more towards rules than grace. Yes, so making people feel condemned instead of loved.

Speaker 1: 15:14

I had a deep conversation with a young lady a few weeks ago maybe about a month or two ago and it was literally us just digging into the difference between condemnation and conviction. Right, because those are very different. Conviction draws you to the Holy Spirit. Conviction makes you want to get closer to the Lord. Conviction works on your heart and makes you draw closer. Condemnation makes you run and makes you think that you're never going to be good enough, and you're never going to be good enough and you're never living up to a standard that is not there. Like conviction or condemnation pushes you away because you think you'll never be able to be good enough and like. So what you're saying of that legalism when it's in a church and it and it's not grace. But then, on the flip side, there are churches that are so about grace that you never see a change in anybody's life. That's also a problem.

Speaker 2: 16:08

That's a problem too as well. It's funny too, as you're talking about condemnation and conviction. Condemnation makes you feel shame. Yes, conviction makes you feel remorse.

Speaker 1: 16:17

Totally.

Speaker 2: 16:18

Like what I'm saying.

Speaker 1: 16:19

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 16:20

One makes you remember who you were, yeah, and the other one makes you remember who you're becoming, yeah. Like you know what?

Speaker 1: 16:28

I'm saying it's so true.

Speaker 2: 16:29

And so I do think legalism does hurt people, like where people feel like man, they'll never amount to what God has called them to be because they're not waking up at 4 am to pray and intercede and travail for four hours Right, that's legalism. That's legalism. People dumping leaders, churches, people dumping on people like their practice. I had one guy who almost left the church because there were guys that were discipling him and he said man, they always make me feel like I'm not close enough to God. That's what the guy said to me. He said coming to church was so hard because these guys were making me feel like I'm just not there yet. That's not healthy. Because, he said, like they made me feel bad for sleeping in. I was like man. Rest is a gift, yes, From God, Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 17:14

You know, how many times in the Bible Jesus was caught sleeping? Yes, he's sleeping on a boat In a storm, and the Bible said he had a cushion. Jesus, that man had a pillow In the middle of a storm. You're on the bottom Pillows, before pillows were created. Jesus, where'd you find the pillow?

Speaker 1: 17:33

You know you needed a pillow because you know it could mess up your spine, Like if your head is not set up right. The chiropractor in Jesus was like nah, I can't be out of alignment.

Speaker 2: 17:38

But he could heal himself too right. So judgmental attitudes towards struggles. So judgmental attitudes towards struggles, lifestyle choices or past mistakes can push people away, causing them to be hurt. And I think sometimes and we've learned this from Pastor too, like you know, there are some leaders that it was unintentional. Yes, they were just doing what they thought was best Right, and they unintentionally hurt people. I've unintentionally hurt people. I've unintentionally hurt people.

Speaker 1: 18:06

I've unintentionally hurt people. Remember that person who said that I was very fake because I told them I liked their hair a different way than they normally wear it? Like I complimented, I'm a complimenter.

Speaker 2: 18:18

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:19

I naturally am like I tell people all the time like I'm a hype girl, I'm going to hype you up and it's genuine right. Like I mean, I'm not gonna hype you up for nothing, but I'm gonna hype you up for your outfit, your face, your makeup, all the things. And I just genuinely complimented this lady. I'm like, oh my gosh, I love your hair like this. I've never seen it. It's so beautiful.

Speaker 1: 18:36

She thought that I was being like, was hurt by me complimenting her, but it was. It wasn't that, but it was. That was trauma inside of her that it touched a wound. My good intentions, I unintentionally hurt her as a leader. But I think what we've really talked about in the last few weeks, when it comes to hurting people whether it is your and it wasn't so much in regards to us, but other people of like their tone it is your and it wasn't so much in regards to us, but other people of like their tone, their approach, uh, cause we work, not that we get it perfect, but we work very, very, very hard in our uh conversations, our approaches, our tone of voice, um, whether it's a voice memo, whether it's a, does that need to be a phone call? Ooh, does that one need to be in person? Like we talk about this stuff a lot when we are talking to people at our church, but we had said in regards to other people of like, do they have a bad heart or they did they have a bad day?

Speaker 2: 19:36

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:37

Like, did their approach in that conversation? It hurt someone right, but was that their heart to hurt them? Yeah, no, it probably wasn't their heart to hurt them.

Speaker 2: 19:47

And that's what, and that's what pastor always talks about, like being, you know, looking at somebody and saying like, hey, do we charge this to their heart or do we charge this to their head? Cause there's sometimes people are people and I'm telling you, like we've been church hurt and if you listen to this and you've been church hurt, you have to really process the person that hurt you. What they did to you, was it from their heart or was it from their head? Yeah, because there's a difference. God looks at the heart.

Speaker 2: 20:12

So, if their intentions were well and their heart was in the right place. Maybe their head was in the wrong place. The head right. That's your soul, that's your mind.

Speaker 1: 20:23

That might've been ways that you're programmed.

Speaker 2: 20:25

That might've just been your childhood, your childhood how you were raised, how you were raised, your cultural background, like where you come from, your demographically speaking, like my nationality, like we approach things differently from how y'all approach things, for sure. And so don't charge it to my heart, charge it to my head. There are some times it is somebody's heart Like I know. We're talking about this earlier, about Jesus had someone like Peter that was next to him and he had someone like Judas that was next to him, right, judas, it was his heart. It was his heart. He allowed bitterness, unforgiveness, all these negative things to root deep down into his heart, which his behavior caused him to betray the family, betray Jesus, peter, his head just, he just wasn't thinking.

Speaker 1: 21:06

Yeah. He had a bad day. Judas had a bad heart.

Speaker 2: 21:09

That's what I'm saying. So I've had people that get that got hurt from me and they just walked out or left and things like that, not realizing yo. That wasn't my intention and I'm so sorry, charge it to my head, I wasn't thinking or I had a bad day or I wasn't processing it properly.

Speaker 1: 21:25

But that brings up an important part of as a believer that is my responsibility, that if I'm hurt by someone. The Bible tells us, if you are hurt by someone, you go to them one-on-one and you share that with them. That is how we strive for unity. If we don't tell our leaders, hey, you hurt me and I want to understand, or can I explain to you how that came off hurtful to me. Can I share with you my heart or your like, can I?

Speaker 2: 21:53

hear from you differently.

Speaker 1: 21:54

That's your responsibility, it is Bible. It is not a preference. It is because what you do, when you leave, when you get hurt and you don't talk to that person and you walk out the door, what you do is you cause hurt in that body and you leave it wounded and it can never heal until you go back and you say hey, this is where this happened, this is what happened, this is how I felt. And then, when those two people can stand there and say you know what I?

Speaker 2: 22:23

hear you.

Speaker 1: 22:24

That was not my intention. I am sorry and I will try to do better next time. Then that wound can start healing Now if you still need to move on to the next body of Christ. Go for it, but at least you worked for that unity, because that's what we're called to do as a body of Christ is to be in unity.

Speaker 2: 22:42

That's it. It's funny because there's people that we're discipling right now that has called us in the last month that someone in the church hurt them. Yeah, and I remember one lady she called me and I was walking her through it. She's like what should I do? I said call that person and work it out. It's Bible. And they were like, really Like you guys shouldn't get involved. I said, sis, you're jumping to step three, right. And I said here's what the Bible says.

Speaker 2: 23:06

Jesus said it when somebody does something, they hurt you, they, they, they've harmed you. It says go to that person in private. This is literally discipleship, this is biblical foundation. And I remember like she was like, oh my gosh, she's like we've never been taught that before and I was like I'm going to teach it to you right now. Here's what the Bible says you go to that person and says I'm going to give you words, I'm going to give you language.

Speaker 2: 23:36

But I said, before you do it, though, speck in their eye. He said get that big old wood chip out of your eye. So he's telling them to check one another. Just before you do it, check yourself. So this is what I want to encourage everybody that's listening on your point, what you're saying. We need to look at our heart first, because that's what God looks at. Like, get your head out the way on both sides. Like, the leader needs to learn how to like. Yo, please forgive me, that was not my heart, my head, I just wasn't thinking, I wasn't processing. That's how I've done it before Like and then the other person needs to be ready to receive that forgiveness and give forgiveness, practice forgiveness. But look at their heart and we need to go to each other. And the Bible says Jesus said and then, if you, if they don't accept it, bring in a third party, bring in a witness, bring in someone else. And then still, jesus said if they still don't accept it, now go to the church, bring it to the church.

Speaker 2: 24:20

Bring it to the leaders, bring it to the pastors and say, look, we're trying to work this thing out and I admire people who don't run. Anyone who runs I do not want to be in relationship with. I want someone that wants to fight, for this Wants to fight. Oh, you hurt me.

Speaker 1: 24:33

You didn't tell me I didn't know, and that's why anything you don't tell me.

Speaker 2: 24:37

And that's why Jesus had to forgive those who crucified him.

Speaker 1: 24:41

He said father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. I'd in even in that generalization of the situation you're talking about. I had to encourage someone and I said the hardest thing that we are called to do as Christians is to forgive people that will never ask for forgiveness. It's required of us, it is a commandment to forgive, and I'm going to encourage anyone who's listening right now.

Speaker 1: 25:08

If you have hurt from a leader, maybe you didn't go to them, maybe you didn't get the opportunity, maybe that opportunity has passed and you can't go back and talk about it.

Speaker 1: 25:18

If it's there, please let this be an encouragement to you to say go back to that leader and talk with them in soft tones, in calm words, with the love of Jesus in your heart, in standing biblically in the Bible and saying hey, this is my job, to come to you and say that I was hurt.

Speaker 1: 25:34

We talk, can we resolve, but beyond that, if that is not an option, if that is not possible for you to do that, the hardest job that you have it is a commandment and that is to forgive them. Yeah, and if you need a little bit of inspiration, all you have to do is think about the father that forgives you, and not just when you said, lord, forgive my sins, come into my life and change my life, but he forgives you. And not just when you said, lord, forgive my sins, come into my life and change my life, but he forgives you. Daily, daily, daily, daily. We get that forgiveness from the Lord, daily. We have grace daily. We wake up every single day and we have new forgiveness and new mercies every morning. And so that gives me the inspiration to be like who am I to not forgive?

Speaker 2: 26:17

a leader.

Speaker 1: 26:17

Who am I to say, oh wait, I get forgiveness every day, but for you, I'm going to hold onto that one. I don't want the Lord to hold anything against me that I didn't do unknowingly. So, please, I'm going to do the hard work, I'm going to let it go, and I'm going to let it go and I'm going to forgive. Oh yeah, even if I never get an apology, even if I never get the acknowledgement, even that they did hurt Well.

Speaker 2: 26:41

Jesus even taught to the measure of what you forgive will be how you're forgiven, right. That's why he even taught them. When you're like, when you're praying, say forgive us as we forgive. That's right, as we forgive as we forgive. So maybe you're listening to this and we didn't mention anything that you're like well, I didn't get hurt by that. Look, there's a bunch of things that people get hurt by Right At church. You know there's, there's, there's leadership, failure Right From leadership, there's judgment.

Speaker 1: 27:02

Right, there's legalism we talked about betrayal could be one.

Speaker 2: 27:05

Gossip is a big one For sure. People were talking about and you're just going to run, you're not going to face it, you're not going to help them. You're not going to help them get the speck out of their eye, because that's not biblical. When people run from that, run from the fellowship, broken friendships being overlooked, that can leave you with wounds. Maybe this one lack of support in hard times.

Speaker 2: 27:28

You went through a hard time. Maybe nobody actually knew about it and you expect people to just know about it. So you get hurt because you're like it's true you was. I was in the hospital, I got in the car, but I'm like you didn't know you didn't tell nobody, very true. And then, and then here's this one people ask you what do you need? And you said no, I'm fine, it's. Do you need anything from us?

Speaker 2: 27:48

no, we're good we're good and you got hurt that nobody came. That's one right there. You gotta own that. Got to accept that one burnout is another one yeah burnout because you don't learn how to speak up yeah because I get it, maybe some leaders might have abused your kindness, your gift of serving, yeah, but at the end of the day, we got to stand up to our leaders. We got to stand up to ourselves. We have to give ourselves rest, right. You might have been exploited, you might have been used.

Speaker 1: 28:14

I that used, I that right there was that one.

Speaker 2: 28:17

That's how I got church hurt. I got church hurt because I was exploited Like I was feeling used for my talents and my resources, without genuine relationships. That, right there, left me feeling undervalued. That was so. Everyone has one thing that caused it. I chose to forgive. I reached out to those leaders in the past and said man, I'm just grateful, thank you, and if I've ever done anything to hurt you, please forgive me. Unmet expectations we talked about that one. That one's a big one why people get hurt, and I just want to encourage everyone to like face your church hurt. Yes, you, your church hurt. Yes, you have to get healing from it. Like church hurt is real, but it doesn't have to define like someone's faith. It doesn't have to define it. Here's a thought right here when it comes to being healed from it, separate God's character from people's failures 100%.

Speaker 2: 29:09

You want to overcome church hurt. Separate God's character from people's failures. Don't be mad at God, okay. Be frustrated with his people, yep.

Speaker 1: 29:18

Wherever people are, there is sin. Wherever I am, there is sin. Wherever you are, I'm a person. We are people, imperfect people. We are striving for perfect, we are striving for spiritually led people, but there is sin, there is fault.

Speaker 2: 29:35

Exactly. Another one is really look for a healthy church. So if, if, if you are part of an unhealthy church and you know it's unhealthy, right Cause I don't want this conversation to allude to that Every church is healthy.

Speaker 1: 29:49

There are many, many healthy churches. There are many, many unhealthy churches, oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:53

Yeah, there are many. Yeah, yeah, they're all out there, yeah. So really look for healthy churches. How do you do that, though? Go through the biblical standards of what embodies a church, like what you'll find in a church to determine. You don't determine what should be a healthy church. The Bible tells you what you should find right. So I'll say, like, really find a healthy church, but also know that if you're not healthy and you uproot yourself because of church hurt, you didn't face it. You went to another church that was healthy and you hid what you went through and you jumped in that church trying to act like you're all good. When there are problems at that church, you brought them, because everywhere you go there, you are If the same problem finds you at the next church it's you, that's just a cycle of unhealthy.

Speaker 2: 30:47

It's like man everywhere I go, I get the same problem. Yeah, because everywhere you go you're there, there you are. It's you, it's you, it's you, it's on your shoes, it's on your shoes, it's in your face, or it's on your tongue, it's on your lips. I'm sorry man, I'm feeling this one today Also, this one right here, to overcome betrayal and church hurt.

Speaker 1: 31:09

Remember that Jesus was betrayed and that Jesus was hurt.

Speaker 2: 31:13

Yes, he was and who hurt him? Religious people.

Speaker 1: 31:16

Religious people yeah. So Christ understands he sure does, and he still forgave them.

Speaker 2: 31:24

So don't act like nobody understands the hurt. Don't act like no one understands betrayal. Don't act like no one understands being misunderstood. If anyone does, it is christ. Yeah, like it's. So acknowledge the hurt. I got a list here. So acknowledge the hurt. Separate god from the people right. Seek healing, not bitterness. Another one is find a safe space to process some of us. We find miserable comfort.

Speaker 1: 31:53

They're like miserable comforting friends I was like I'm struggling really so paul's.

Speaker 2: 32:00

So so job his friends when he went through a hard time and lost everything. There was a point in time where his friends were miserable comforts misery loves company so find safe spaces to process but what does that look like? Because it's not someone who's in your same church. Talk to a mentor.

Speaker 1: 32:18

It's not someone that's going through the same thing as you. It's not the people in your small group that you are being hurt by. It's not those people. It's not your people in your church, because then you're just gossiping, yeah, like it is literally people outside of that circle of where you're getting hurt.

Speaker 2: 32:33

Outside of that situation, that circle of where you're getting hurt, outside of that situation, or leadership, yeah with, with the outside of you, yeah, always, like all your negativity always needs to go up to leadership, like it shouldn't be negativity.

Speaker 1: 32:40

Is that what you said?

Speaker 2: 32:41

yeah, all negativity right, so it needs to go up to leadership right, like it shouldn't go to anyone that can't help you right, anyone that can't help you. Rise above this right. So find, find mentors, find counselors, trusted friends like that that can actually help you walk through it. Another thought is avoid venting in unhealthy ways, like on social media yes subliminal messages to your pastors.

Speaker 1: 33:04

I hate when they crap like that like the sharing on the, on the stories of like resentful, like you're trying to poke at somebody but, it's like passive, aggressive, like, please don't please don't do that, bro.

Speaker 2: 33:15

It's, it's real, it's, it's real, it's real. It's real, like church is real, and I think also I'm going to say this too as well Just agree to disagree, not in a passive, aggressive way, no Meaning. Like you guys, you will disagree with certain preferences and certain behaviors. That's not the Bible, doesn't specify it. Or it's not, it doesn't go against biblical standards. Right? Just just agree that you guys don't agree on it and that's okay.

Speaker 2: 33:46

Every church you go to, you're going to find that you need to determine what is your standards and your non-negotiables. Literally, everything cannot be non-negotiable.

Speaker 1: 33:57

That's very true. There are people that like, everything is hardcore and you're like, no, that's just preference.

Speaker 2: 34:05

You mean like everything's non-negotiable. It's not true, but it's it's like yo peanut m&ms or milk m&ms milk and was non-negotiable ew, who calls them milk. That's what they are. They're milk m&ms, no chocolate please, the chocolate is important yeah you can't just call who calls them milk m&ms.

Speaker 1: 34:25

Hey, which kind of m&ms are your favorite milk? No, there, no, there's no milk.

Speaker 2: 34:28

M&Ms Relax.

Speaker 1: 34:29

Milk chocolate.

Speaker 2: 34:30

Agree to disagree.

Speaker 1: 34:31

Okay, see what. I mean no, it's non-negotiable. Non-negotiable Milk chocolate but it's so true, like how we have to literally, like our emotions get wound up, especially when it's something you're so passionate about and you feel so strongly that God has put this burden on your heart.

Speaker 1: 34:47

For this thing, you're ready to fight anybody, argue anything for, however long it takes, and you actually run people over when you do that. But if you would just take a step back, take a breath, slow down and realize that God has actually called you to this and to this standard for your life but, he may not have called that to the next person you're fighting with.

Speaker 1: 35:11

So, instead of fighting within the body, calling like causing uh, disagreements, causing hurt, causing strife about you, just take a step back, take a breath and actually ask the Holy spirit to work on them and to work on you, cause that's the key point you can't just pray for the Holy Spirit to work on that person, work on that person, change their heart, open their eyes, show them what they should do, but you're not asking the same thing of the Holy Spirit for yourself. That's not okay. Like we need to ask that we have a Holy Spirit working in us as well.

Speaker 2: 35:46

Yeah, man, that's big One of. I want to talk real quick to. I want to talk real quick to man. These sirens are loud right now in this city. You guys know we live in a city, right? Yo, if you guys are liking this conversation, make sure you hit like, make sure you send this to somebody, subscribe. But I want to share, I want to share this. This is to everyone. That is a leader and we are called to live above reproach. That's Bible, it's not a preference. You see what I mean? It's not a preference, it's not a thought, it's not a cool idea. It's Bible. Those who are called to live above reproach.

Speaker 2: 36:16

Right, I had this pastor that I worked for for several years. It was actually a pivotal moment. It was a church that really changed everything about how I lead. It's probably the one organization that I learned everything from when it comes to, like my leadership skills, that that made me the leader that I am today. Totally, um, it wasn't like the foundational stuff, because there was another church that I worked for, like our home church. That one, I learned a lot of foundation, but there was something that happened. There was a misunderstanding. I got a message from from him and he kind of just went off just these are the things like we, this where we fell, this, this didn't work, this and he's like sunday's now I'm gonna have to come in and rescue it, save the day. It was just this bad and like, disappointed, frustrated. We got to step it up your leader was.

Speaker 2: 36:56

Your pastor was like, yeah, like he was saying this to me and, like my associate, at the time we were working and, like I remember, like broke down, breaking down, and I because, first of all, he didn't give us no space to even like, like, like, like, like, to speak into it, and then we just accepted yes, sir, won't happen again. Well, the next day he he got the full story from someone else, our executive, and it was like, it was like a aha moment for him. But this is not the point of story. The point of story is later on that day, at church, he pulled me and my associate aside, he put his hands around us, tears in his eyes, and he said guys there, comes a time when a man has to know when he's right and when he's wrong.

Speaker 2: 37:33

And he said I didn't have all the information yesterday and I was wrong. He said I went off on you guys and it was. It was after service. We were in the like, like we're in the lobbies and tears in the eyes and he was like I'm sorry and I'm looking at him, his eyes, and I was like it, like it was like and and I'm looking at him like man, like someone at that level doesn't really have to do this. Yeah, but as a leader, the way up is down yeah and he said will you guys forgive me?

Speaker 2: 38:02

and I looked at him, I said his name, I said man. I said you will always be top in my book forever because of what you just did right now.

Speaker 1: 38:10

I said you didn't have to do this.

Speaker 2: 38:12

I said you will always be top in my book because of what you did Like. I said, yes, of course, forgive you, Because I remember getting so upset.

Speaker 2: 38:22

But, the crazy thing is what he doesn't know is I already forgave him. And what I'm saying is the story is twofold. It's to leaders to learn how to humble yourselves. It's Jesus right, he took lashes, he took hits that wasn't his to take and he did that as a leader. He humbled himself. So, as a leader, I'm learning more and more to like humble myself and say hey guys, that's on me, I'm not my bad, I'm sorry. Who doesn't respect that?

Speaker 2: 38:50

yeah, but the second full is the person who got offended yeah refused to hold on to it and I actually forgave him before he even asked for it that's crazy and I think people who are leaders need to learn how to ask for forgiveness 100 own it and those who got offended learn to stop being offendable.

Speaker 2: 39:08

Like, or or don't be offended. Stop being offended, yeah, like it's, it's, that's. That's. The stronger you are, the stronger I am. If you come and push me on my shoulders, right, because I stay strong, that won't hurt me. Yeah, people are getting church hurt because they're weak, they're not in in the word and they do not take on the full armor of God.

Speaker 1: 39:28

And it doesn't give all of this, like it doesn't give the leaders the right to hurt them, like it's not excusing everything that leaders do right, because leaders mess up. Leaders are people and they're human and they do make mistakes. But as the person that's following like, it's my responsibility to make sure I give forgiveness. It's my responsibility to make sure I don't even give the tiniest place for the devil to take root in my heart and create bitterness and resentment and hate towards my leaders. So it is. It is both it's both sided of the leader has to do the responsibility of asking for forgiveness, of being humble, and it's the following person to say you know what? You don't even have to ask for it, I forgive you already.

Speaker 2: 40:16

Exactly so, whether whether you are offending people and you're hurting people and you don't know it, or whether you've been hurt. How do you overcome this? How do you protect this and how do you prevent this? It's, ultimately, it's putting on the full armor of God. How do I keep myself from getting hurt when I have the helmet of salvation? It don't matter what you do to try to get in my head.

Speaker 2: 40:39

I meditate on God's word and his word and his truth daily. You talked about the enemy tries to come at us and try to shoot things at us. The Bible says to put on the breastplate of righteousness the shield of faith, so that when the enemy comes to come and shoot at you, those fiery darts, bitterness, unforgiveness, shield of faith, breastplate of righteousness. Right, and for leaders that are out there and you're hurting people, you don't even realize it. You need to make sure that you have on peace as your shoes. We walk into a room and work to make peace. Jesus said blessed are those that work for peace or blessed is the peacemaker. So my job, so my job as a leader, is to always make peace, week, all week long. All we do is making peace. Oh, my father.

Speaker 1: 41:28

It's time I'd be tired. I mean week, all week long, All we do is making peace.

Speaker 2: 41:31

Oh, my father, I'd be tired sometimes.

Speaker 1: 41:32

I'm like man, I'm tired of me. I've been making peace, man, like that's all I do, but that's that's what we strive for In the body of Christ and in the, in the sheep that the Lord has trusted us with. The Bible says if you love me, feed my sheep, and that is literally all our time is given to the sheep that God's entrusted us with and literally making peace within the body of Christ.

Speaker 2: 41:49

Yeah, so the enemy comes to to to separate. He comes to destroy relationships. He comes to steal our resources. He wants to kill our bodies, kill our, kill our relationships. Comes to cause division, strife, deception. That's the biggest thing. How do we overcome church hurt? How do we protect it and how do we prevent it? That's what we do. Avoid, like, like, avoid talking with people. That that's not going to help you. Yeah, paul and barnabas and axe, they agreed to disagree. Right, paul and barnabas, they just didn't agree on the team, the preferences. Yeah, barnabas was like yo, I want to bring on jean-marc and jean-marc and paul was like no, I don't like him man, I don't like how he did it back when we were back at the other city. What?

Speaker 1: 42:33

translation is this Huh. What translation is this? It's my translation.

Speaker 2: 42:36

He said no, I don't like him. He said absolutely not, we're not doing it. All caps, nope, all caps. That's a millennial right there, talk all caps. Yep, he wasn't glazing no cap. No, he wasn't glazing me pierre, oh my gosh like what you saying the alphas are like. First of all, I don't know why I was even listening to this right now, we're gonna lose all of our younger followers.

Speaker 1: 43:01

They're like, unfollow, unsubscribe come on, I still got aura um guys, you can tell we have 11 year old in our house. We're learning all the brain rot words. Anyways, man, we love you guys.

Speaker 2: 43:09

Uh, we have an 11-year-old in our house. We're learning all the brain rot words. Anyways, man, we love you guys. We want to know your thoughts on this conversation. Are you dealing with church hurt? Can we pray for you? I think we should pray for people right now that you came across this conversation and you've been hurt by a church and you don't know if it was intentional or unintentional. But I know that the Holy Spirit can help you overcome it. He, holy Spirit, can help you overcome it. He's the comforter, that's all that matters. Maybe you listen to this and you've been on the other side where you've caused church hurt and maybe you don't even realize it. And I hope and pray that this conversation has enlightened you and opened up your mind to realize like, oh my gosh, have I hurt and offended people? Holy Spirit, reveal it to me so I can go back and right my wrongs. I can help people release me so that they can move further in their life, but I really. Our goal is to really help people build stronger relationships, man.

Speaker 1: 43:53

So I think we should pray A hundred percent. Way too many times A hundred percent Also I would really like to know a counter of how many times we said church.

Speaker 2: 44:01

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 44:01

Right, like at a thousand.

Speaker 1: 44:02

Yeah, probably, but let's, let's let's these church people All right, cool, um, I also. I, just before we pray, I want to encourage anyone who does have that church hurt and you're holding onto it. It. It literally is saying if you still have that church hurt and you're holding onto it, it's because you have not fully given it to the Lord. As soon as you are ready and you are able to just put it in the hands of the Lord, that's when you're free from it. That's when you release it. The only reason why you still have it is because you're still holding it. And as soon as you open your hands and open your heart and you lay it at the feet of Jesus, you will be free from that church hurt. It may take time for it to heal, but you won't be holding onto it anymore. So I just want to encourage you before we pray, like while we pray, make that choice. It is just a choice to let go of it. It doesn't mean they're right, it just means you've forgiven. That's right. Lord, we just come before you right now. We thank you for the body of Christ. We thank you for the gift that it is to us, that you have given us a family, brothers and sisters in Christ that we get to build a life with, to grow in our relationship with you, and that it really does make us stronger. The iron sharpens iron, but sometimes in that process, lord, people do get hurt. We've gotten hurt.

Speaker 1: 45:23

Maybe some of our listeners right now are struggling with a church hurt that was caused by someone in the body of Christ, and I pray for the person who does have that church hurt and who's still holding on to that pain. Lord, I ask right now that you would send your Holy Spirit into wherever they are and that you would give them grace, that you would give them strength to let it go and lay it at your feet. We know that you are the healer and that doesn't just mean physically, that means emotionally, that means spiritually. So, father, I ask that you would heal those wounds, that you would heal those pains and those things that have been caused by church people and the followers that do believe in you and say your name, but sometimes they cause hurt and pain. So, father, I thank you that you would heal those wounds, that you would heal those heart, that those would become scars that heal beautifully and that would actually sing of your praises of how good of a healer you are, father, I ask that you would help those people to remember how much you've forgiven us and that we forgive your people.

Speaker 1: 46:26

For all of the leaders that are listening today, father, I ask that you would help them to be a stronger leader, that you would help them to be more self-reflective and see more of themselves, that they would lead more like you, that they would learn to speak with peace through their words, that they would learn to have soft words, soft hearts, soft minds to care for the sheep that you've trusted them with.

Speaker 1: 46:49

We thank you, father, that you don't leave us, how you found us, and that in every situation that we've talked about today, father, that you would continue to grow us, that you would continue to make us more like you in every aspect, in every way that we walk, in every word that we say, every action that we take, every conversation that we have, that it would reflect you more and more. We thank you, father, for your forgiveness that we wake up to every day. We thank you for your son dying on the cross for us and forgiving us. We thank you that you paid the price that we could never pay, and so, because of that, we choose to forgive every single day. We thank you for all of this. Thank you for bringing us closer, Thank you for drawing us nearer, thank you for making us more like you. In Jesus' name, we pray.

Speaker 2: 47:36

Amen, amen. Let's dig crew, we love you. We pray that God blesses you. We pray that, as you're in this season and you're looking for a church, if you're in the area of Southern California, you guys can join us. We're at Sanctuary Church right here in Costa Mesa. We are a church that are spirit led, biblical foundation, and we love God and we love his people, and so we love you. Guys here at let's Dig the podcast, be sure to like, subscribe. Send this to somebody, though, that you feel like man they're dealing with. Church hurt right now. Don't forget, pick up a hoodie. We got pins now. Church hurt right now. Don't forget, pick up a hoodie. We got pins now. We got stickers. We got some hats. These are all things that can really help you grow in communicating your faith and your story to other people, and so keep on digging. Remember we are here for you guys, to help you guys grow stronger relationships with God, others and yourself. We will see you next time, peace.